Demonic Games

                       Can Christians Be Demon Possessed

                                By Phil Scovell

               I am going to try my best not to belabor  all the aspects of
          the article  on the  demon possession of  a Christian  written by
          Chuck  Smith.   I could easily  get carried away  and write fifty
          pages on  all the  things that jumped  out at  me as  I read  his
          article.  Instead, I  will try and limit my comments  to the most
          obvious errors I feel are  important to note.  Let me  recommend,
          however, that you take the time to read his complete article.  It
          is also posted on my website with my rebuttal.

               Let's  start first  with what  I believe  about the  demonic
          possession of a  born again Christian.   I don't believe it.   In
          fact, I believe  it is an impossibility.   So, I am  in agreement
          with the  article in that regard.  It  is the other remarks Chuck
          Smith makes which concerns me.

               For example, he begins by saying this.

               "   The question has been forced  upon us:  Can a born again
          Christian be possessed by a demon?"

               Forced upon  us?  Holy cow.   I remember this  being debated
          when I was a  little kid in the Baptist church.   I never got the
          idea it was  forced upon anybody.   In  fact, in my  47 years  of
          walking with  the Lord, I  have talked to literally  thousands of
          Christian  people.   I have never  once, in my  entire life, ever
          heard any born again Christian say they believed, as a Christian,
          you could be demon possessed.  I'm not saying that some Christian
          some  place doesn't truly  think Christian demonic  possession is
          possible, but  I personally have never met  one.  I've heard over
          40,000 sermons  preached in my  life time and  I have never  even
          heard  the weirdest of Charismatic Christians say they believed a
          truly born again Christian could be demon possessed.  Again, I am
          sure there has got to be some  Charismatic maniacs out there who,
          no  doubt, believe a Christian can  be demon possessed but I have
          never met one and God as my witness, I have met some pretty weird
          Charismatics in  my day.   Furthermore, I would venture  to guess
          that  I have  personally  heard preach,  witnessed  them as  they
          ministered, studied  other writings  and Biblical  teachings, and
          been  around  more  people  who  claimed  to  be  called  to  the
          deliverance  ministry than anybody  reading these remarks,  and I
          have never known even any of those people to say they believe, as
          a Christian, you could be demon possessed.  So, this guy confuses
          me right  off the  bat in the  first sentence.   I  just question
          anybody who starts out on the wrong  foot as if he has an axe  to
          grind because  they usually do,  in fact, have  an axe  to grind.
          Perhaps I'm  being overly sensitive  but things like  his opening
          statement always catches my attention and makes me suspicious.

               Then he says the following.

               "The  answer  based  on  the  Scriptures  and  logic  is  an
          unequivocal NO!  The proponents of this unscriptural doctrine use
          such terms as  Christians being "invaded  by demons" rather  than
          demon possessed. This is nothing more than word games and a smoke
          screen to hide the Scriptural weakness of their position."

               Hold the phone right there.   Read that again.   "The answer
          based on the Scriptures  and logic?"  Sorry,  it is either  based
          upon Scripture or  it isn't.  Logic has absolutely  nothing to do
          with  faith.  If  you want to  be logical, that's fine.   When it
          comes  to the  interpretation and  application  of God's  eternal
          word, there ain't no need for logic because you either believe it
          by faith or you don't.  So which is it going to be?

               Let's continue.

               He says, "The  proponents of this unscriptural  doctrine use
          such terms as  Christians being "invaded  by demons" rather  than
          demon possessed. This is nothing more than word games and a smoke
          screen to hide the Scriptural weakness of their position."

               Once again,  he has an inside track  on who these people are
          whom he calls  the "proponents of this unscriptural  doctrine.  I
          would love to meet  one of these screw balls he  is talking about
          some day.  He, furthermore claims that these weird Bible nuts are
          semantically dishonest.  Well, if you keep reading, I'll show you
          some pretty fancy  semantical footwork which he uses himself that
          is right down misleading and, for that matter, contradictory.

               From this point, he starts getting down to brass tax when he
          says the following.

               "They  also present an illogical supposition that the demons
          can invade or control the mind or body, but not the spirit."

               Already, we are  apparently back to using logic to interpret
          the spiritual application of God's  word because he accuses these
          people of being guilty of using "illogical supposition."

               I am not going to quote all the text and Scriptures to which
          he refers to on the Christian being the temple of God  because it
          all boils down  to one  thing and he  says it  pretty well.   The
          Bible most certainly  confirms that our bodies are  the temple of
          God.   What he fails to  point out is that  the physical body and
          the mind and emotions of a Christian are not regenerated.  That's
          a  good  old  Bible  seminary  term  which  means,  theologically
          speaking, your  body and your  mind and emotions, are  not saved.
          We know this, dare I use the  term logically, because the body is
          dying every day.  The mind isn't exactly too holy either.  If our
          emotions were  saved, born again,  or regenerated, then  we would
          never get mad or lose our temper, now would we.

               James 1:21  confirms that  these areas  of our  unregenerate
          lives  are saved, disciplined,  brought under subjection,  by the
          Word of God.  I wonder  why James, if, according to the  article,
          demons  are apparently  unable to  have anything  to do  with the
          mind,  or the  emotions,  or  the body,  would  be bothered  even
          teaching on  the importance of  discipline of these areas  of our
          physical makeup.   Especially if they could not  be tampered with
          by demons in the life of a Christian.

               During  his attempt  to get  you to  believe that  the Bible
          doesn't teach anything  about demonic activity being  possible in
          your mind or your body, he says the following.

               "To  say that a Christian's body or mind can be possessed or
          invaded by demons  is to contradict the  Word of God  and declare
          that there  is a communion  of light  and darkness, that  God and
          Satan are dwelling together."

               I am still at a loss here because I have yet to find someone
          who believes the mind or the body can be possessed  by a demon if
          they are a Christian.  Oppressed?   Sure.  Influenced?  You  bet.
          Tempted?  Sure  thing.  Possessed?   I've never heard it  said by
          anyone that such was  possible.  Not of a Christian  at any rate.
          According to this article however, none of this is even possible.
          Why?   Because, we  are the temple  of God.   Apparently  we are,
          therefore, immune from the demonics?   Boy, I wish he was  right.
          He  isn't, though,  and  that  is why  some  of  his teaching  is
          spiritually dangerous for the Christian.

               I won't quote  all of what he  says next but he  attempts to
          use  Scripture to  confirm that  we  are seated  in the  heavenly
          places with Christ Jesus.  In this spiritual state, we are at war
          with Satan.   His logic is, if we are  at war with the Enemy, how
          can he possess us  or do anything  to us as  we war against  him.
          Sounds mighty good.  It's just simply wrong.

               Now, here  is another  statement that  should generate  some
          concern.  If not concern, then confusion.

               "We need  the help of God to stand,  for these rulers of the
          darkness can and  do attack us  in a variety  of ways.  But  they
          cannot come in and take control of our lives."

               Earlier he  seems to imply, at  least to me, that,  since we
          are seated in heavenly places  with Christ Jesus, that we are  at
          war  with the  demonic realm.   Of course,  his argument  is, the
          demonic realm is below us, and so that's why, since we are seated
          high above in heavenly places, the demons cannot come to where we
          are seated with  Christ.  If this is  true, why does he  say "for
          these rulers of the darkness can and do attack us in a variety of
          ways."   My  question  is,  how and  where  do  they  attack  us?
          According to Chuck Smith, the author of the article to which I am
          referring,  our body,  soul, and  spirit  are somehow  protected,
          shielded, from such demonic influence.

               This statement also concerns me.

               "But they cannot come in and take control of our lives."

               Now, I know he  means this in light of actual  possession so
          I'll cut him some  slack and just let this one go  for now.  I'll
          comment on it again later.

               The following likewise concerns me.

               "Christ said concerning  Satan, "The ruler of  this world is
          coming, and  he has  nothing in  Me" (John 14:30).   If  I am  in
          Christ  and Satan has nothing  in Him, Satan  can have nothing in
          me.  Praise the Lord!"

               Is this true?  Do you believe what he just said?

               Then he  asks the  following question and  provides his  own

               "What about  these experiences of  Christians having  demons
          cast out of them?  What are  the voices that name themselves, the
          writhing on the floor,  and the regurgitation?  I do not know.  I
          am  thankful that  since I  do not  engage in  these unscriptural
          practices, I do not have to explain them."

               First  how does  he know  these  people are  not truly  lost
          unbelievers who  are demon  possessed?  If  they are,  doesn't he
          have an obligation  as one of our Lord's  disciples, if they have
          come for help, to assist  them?  Perhaps, I'm guessing,  he would
          just get them  to ask Jesus to  come into their heart  and bingo,
          the demons  would flee?   Good idea.   So, how would he  go about
          getting these people to stop their unscriptural practices as they
          writhed  and regurgitated  on the  floor in  order that  he might
          witness to  them?  Would he flip open his  Bible to John 3:16 and
          begin preaching  the love  of God  to them?   Would  he begin  by
          singing Jesus loves me, this I know?  Would he start by taking an
          offering or perhaps  reading the bulletin for that  Sunday?  What
          would he do?

               Secondly, if  they are  Christians, writhing  around on  the
          floor, as  he suggests, practicing  their unscriptural practices,
          what is wrong with them?  Are they mentally ill and in need of  a
          doctor instead of  a pastor?  If  so, wouldn't he feel  he should
          get them, at the very least, some medical help?

               Thirdly, when he  says, "I am thankful  that since I  do not
          engage in these unscriptural practices,  I do not have to explain
          them,"  what does he mean?  What  is he responsible for in such a
          case?  Does he think these people are doing  it on purpose?  Does
          he believe  they love doing this sort of  thing?  Does he believe
          they  choose to allow these things to  happen which he refuses to

               Now, here is a very  curious statement he makes about demons
          which puzzles me.

               "Some of the names given  by these supposed demons which are
          more popular  are: lust, hatred,  liar, gluttony, envy,  fear and
          jealously.  These  things are classified in  Galatians 5:19-21 as
          works of the flesh.  We are to  "put off all these,"  (Colossians
          3:8) or by the Spirit to "mortify the deeds of the body," (Romans
          8:13,   6:3-14).   Not once are  we commanded  to have  them cast

               I wonder what names he would prefer  demons call themselves.
          Does  he prefer more graphic  names or more  common names such as
          Joe, Harry, Melissa,  or Philip?  I'm confused by why demon names
          bothers him at  all.  Obviously he doesn't even  believe they are
          demons.  At  least he  refuses to  explain it to  anybody so  why
          would their  names even remotely  be of interest  to him?   After
          all, he says, "Not once are we commanded to have them  cast out."
          If they don't  need to be  cast out, who  cares what their  names

               Here is a curious statement.

               "It seems to me that this whole demon trip is a  cop-out for
          the flesh."

               I thought he just said  he wasn't obligated to explain these
          unscriptural practices.   That sounds like a personal opinion and
          an explanation to me.  Does  it to you?  If I am  not mistaken, I
          believe we just found his axe to grind.

               Consider the following statement he now makes.

               "In  the  Scriptures  there  does  not exist  one  piece  of
          evidence that  Jesus Christ, His  apostles, or  the early  Church
          once sought to cast demons of the flesh out of anyone in the body
          of Christ."

               How would  he know this  to be 100 percent  positive when we
          are not  always told when a person  is a Christian or not?   I am
          really tempted to start quoting  all sorts of passages about this
          time, which clearly illustrate what I just said, but if I  did, I
          would have to quote a lot  of the New Testament record concerning
          demonology so I'll save that for  a book.  It is something  worth
          considering, however, because we might just have to explain it to
          somebody some day.

               Now this next statement is the one I really like.

               "Even in the supposed  cases from the Scriptures that  would
          confirm  that demons  could  inhabit a  Christian  - Ananias  and
          Sapphira,  "Why  hath Satan  filled thine  heart" (Acts  5:3); or
          Simon the sorcerer,  "Thou art in the gall of  bitterness, and in
          the  bond of  iniquity"  (Acts  8:23) -  Peter  did not  practice
          exorcism.   Instead, there was  instant judgment of death  in the
          first case and a call to repentance in the other."

               Boy.  Take it easy Brother Chuck.  If the married couple, to
          whom  you  referred,  were members  of  the  local  New Testament
          church, but they were not born again, I could understand what you
          are saying.   If  they were  born again,  we have  a big  problem
          because these  people died  as Peter made  his pronouncement.   I
          hope  you  aren't  suggesting that  Christians  who  are writhing
          around on  the floor  and regurgitating as  they engage  in their
          unscriptural practices, should be condemned  to death as we speak
          the Word of God to them.

               By the  way, these two  people had to  be born again,  in my
          humble opinion, because  Peter said they lied to  the Holy Ghost.
          What difference could it make if you lied to God, Jesus, the Holy
          Spirit, the Pope, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, or the president
          of  the United States if  you weren't a Christian.   If you are a
          Christian, on  the other hand, and the Holy Spirit is dwelling in
          you, I would think lying to the Holy Spirit in that case could be
          pretty serious.   What do  you think,  Brother Chuck, or  is this
          something else you are not obligated to explain?

               Here is a statement with which I agree.

               "It  is sad that many Christians  and non-Christians seem to
          have a  greater interest in  Satan and being possessed  by demons
          than they do in Christ and being possessed by His Holy Spirit."

               In all fairness, Brother, I don't think anybody really wants
          to be demon possessed; at least I sure don't.

               This next one though, creates a problem for me.

               "Those who fall into the  practices of exorcism soon seem to
          be looking  for and  placing a greater  emphasis on the  power of
          Satan  to attack  than on  the power  of Christ  to keep.  Demons
          become the  center of  their conversations  and teachings  rather
          than Jesus Christ."

               The Apostle  Paul wrote to  the Corinthian Christians,  in 2
          Corinthians 2:11, and  said, "lest Satan should  get an advantage
          of us: for  we are not  ignorant of his  devices." I wonder  what
          would happen  if born again  Christians were ignorant  of Satan's
          devices.   If we were ignorant of his  devices, could he gain the
          advantage?   How would we  receive such information if  we didn't
          look to God's Word.   God never seems to be  hesitant to tells us
          about  demons.  I  wonder if Jesus  was labeled an  exorcist or a
          devil hunter because  He talked with, and  cast out, demons.   Of
          course,  Jesus only had to cast  out demons from the lost because
          Chuck Smith  has already told us there is no Scriptural record to
          the contrary.  Fantastic Biblical exegesis  and hermeneutics if I
          ever saw  it.  A little sarcasm there on my part.  Forgive me.  I
          got carried a way there for a second and thought I  was preaching
          to a vast crowd and the offering was about to be taken.

               Here is his last and final statement in this article.

               "We as  Christians are  told in James  4:7 to  "resist," not
          "cast out," the devil, and he will flee from us."

               Christians have to resist the devil?  How's come?  I thought
          we were seated in  heavenly places with Christ.  I thought Christ
          defeated  Satan and  all principalities  and  powers through  the
          shedding of His blood and His bodily resurrection.  What is there
          to resist at all, for the Christian, I mean?

          Final Remarks.

               I am pretty certain that  Chuck Smith is attempting to state
          the obvious.   That  is, Christians just  simply cannot  be demon
          possessed.  He admits that in spite of the fact, we are seated in
          heavenly  places with Christ,  Christians are still  attacked, in
          various ways yet  he doesn't feel obligated to  even explain what
          he  means.   He also  concludes we  are commanded  to resist  the
          devil.   Here's a  good question.   What if you,  as a born again
          Christian, do  not obey the command to  resist the devil?  That's
          right?   What would  happen if you  didn't resist the  devil as a
          Christian?  If you are commanded  to resist the devil, how  would
          he come against you?  You don't know?  Does Brother Chuck know or
          is he not obligated to explain it since he doesn't believe  it is
          Scriptural?  Who is obligated to explain  it then?  Why should we
          even  be concerned about  such things if  it only happens  to the
          lost?  Who cares about them anyhow.

               Frankly, I am a whole lot  less concerned about who can, and
          cannot be, demon possessed, than  who gets born again and who  is
          set free of  demon oppression.  Believe  as you wish.   Side with
          those in  whom you  trust.   Conclude that  no such  thing, in  a
          Christian, can happen.  Then I invite you to come and sit with me
          in  a simple  prayer session  and  explain to  the person  seated
          across my desk  from me, what is  happening to them at  that very
          moment.   By  the  time you  get done  fumbling around  with your
          Bible, trying to get them  to understand your beliefs, and trying
          to  convince them  that  what  they  are  experiencing  can't  be
          Biblically  authentic, I  will have  concluded  praying with  the
          person  in the  name of  Jesus Christ  and the  demons, or  those
          things that cannot bother Christians  in their mind or body, will
          be  gone.   Furthermore,  I  don't  even cast  them  out,  as  is
          suggested, because  I let the  person I am  praying with do  that


                    A friend  of mine used  to have a  Christian counseling
          ministry here in Denver.  He now lives in Oregon and works with a
          local church doing the  same things he did here.  He  told me the
          following story.

               One day, a young man in his twenties contacted my friend for
          some counseling.  When he  arrived for his appointment, it wasn't
          long before he confessed his problem.   He was a homosexual.  The
          problem was, he was a born again Christian, too.  Now, of course,
          I realize that some people believe that is impossible just like a
          Christian cannot  be demon  possessed.  That's  fine.   I am  not
          writing this entire article for  those who choose to disagree and
          deny  the oppression  and influence  of  demons in  the Christian
          life.  I  am, on the other  hand, writing this to  the Christians
          who know better  because they are, right now,  being tormented by
          the  voices they  hear in  their thoughts  telling them  they are
          going to hell,  they need to kill themselves,  they aren't worthy
          to be loved  of God, and hundreds of other demonic lies that come
          from deceiving spirits.   So those who  want to hear the  rest of
          this story, please keep reading.

               the young  Christian man  told my friend  that he  tried and
          tried to stay away from  anything homosexual in nature.   Most of
          the time, he confessed, he  was successful.  Occasionally, he was
          not.  He felt trapped and like no one understood nor  believed in
          his personal salvation.

               Devil hunters, I'm  joking, but  often Christian  counselors
          who  have to deal in this area of the demonics from time to time,
          are called such, so I just  thought I would use the term  myself.
          Anyhow, as I  was saying,  counselors who  know who  they are  in
          Christ,  never have to look  for demons.   Why?  They  show up on
          their own.  In  this case, my friend  in no way thought  this man
          was being  influenced by demons.   He just did  his normal, every
          day, counseling work with him.  Nothing was helping and the young
          man still was not set free.

               Finally, in one  session, my friend asked this  young man if
          he would  mind if  they checked  to see  if there  was any  demon
          presence  in his  life.   Skip  how this  is done  for  right now
          because it  would take too long  to explain.  Simply  stated, you
          pray but you can read about  that elsewhere on my website.   Back
          to my story.

               The young  man said he was willing but didn't think that was
          the problem.  After praying, nothing happened, that is, there was
          no demonic  presence made manifest.   My friend, over  the years,
          has  learned how  tricky and  unwilling demons  can be  when they
          don't want you to  find them.  Why  do they wish to be  quiet and
          not found?  Simple.   If you find them, and expose what  they are
          doing, they can't  stay around.  So they hide and they especially
          like to hide if they have a stronghold in a person's life.  There
          is a  difference between a  foothold and a stronghold  but again,
          you can read about that elsewhere on my website.

               Here is the first thing my friend tries.  He lays  his Bible
          at the edge of his desk not more than a foot away from the person
          who has come for counseling.  Then he explains to the person what
          he is attempting to do and what  may happen.  He did exactly this
          with this young man who wanted to be free of homosexuality in his
          life  as a Christian.  Since he had received permission from this
          young man, my  friend then began to  speak to any  demon presence
          that was  trying to influence this  man's life.  The  demon spoke
          through the man's thoughts and literally through his voice.  This
          generally is a good indication that there is a stronghold to deal
          with and not just a foothold.  My friend then told the demon what
          he was going to  ask the young man to do  and commanded the demon
          to do everything  in his power to  stop it but to  remain silent.
          He asked the young man to reach over and pick up his Bible just a
          foot away.  The man tried but could not move.  He tried again and
          began  to grunt from the effort.  His hand and arm on the armrest
          of the  chair wouldn't move.   My friend  encouraged him to  keep
          trying.   The man  grunted and groaned  and struggle to  move his
          hand  off the armrest  to the Bible.   He struggle  so hard, snot
          began dripping from  his nose.  Tears  came to his eyes  and soon
          his face was wet from his tears.  Finally, my friend told him  to
          stop.   The young man almost collapsed as  he relax back into the
          chair.  Then my friend took authority over the demons in the name
          of the True  Lord Jesus  Christ, and commanded  them to stand  at
          attention and to stop what they were doing.  Then he spoke to the
          young man  by name  and said,  "Now, reach  over and  pick up  my
          Bible."  The man easily  and effortlessly reached over and picked
          up the Bible.

               In the next couple of  sessions, my friend taught this young
          man how he could be free from this demonic influence.  When their
          sessions were concluded, the man said that for weeks  he had felt
          no sinful desires and he left and began living a normal Christian
          life from that day on; the homosexuality never returning.

               The story I have just told is true.  If you want  to talk to
          my friend personally to confirm  the story, I'll be happy to  put
          you in touch  with him.  I  don't know if he is  still in contact
          with  the  young,  former homosexual,  man  because  this healing
          occurred  years ago.  By the way,  I am in no way suggesting that
          all  homosexual people are demonically influenced or possessed or
          anything else.  This story is what it is and nothing more.

               I could, at this point,  spend page after page telling story
          after story of my own personal experiences watching the true Lord
          Jesus Christ  set Christians free  from demonic oppression.   No,
          they  aren't demon  possessed.    They had,  on  the other  hand,
          demonic footholds,  and in  some cases,  demonic strongholds,  in
          their life.  Sometimes this was due to sin, and sometimes through
          events beyond their control.   Lest you think all  this is pretty
          funny, or certainly  less than to be concerned about, I will tell
          you one short true story.

          THE GAME

               I was praying with a blind lady one day who had been wounded
          in  many  places  in their  life  over  the years.    There were,
          throughout the 25 or so  prayer sessions we had together, several
          times when demons  manifested by literally speaking  through this
          person's voice to me.  Other times, they refused to speak vocally
          and  only spoke  their thoughts  into her  thoughts and  then she
          repeated their words to me.

               In this  particular case, I laid down certain parameters for
          the demons to follow.  If they violated these  parameters, I told
          them in advance that  I would immediately  turn them over to  the
          True Lord Jesus Christ for Him to  handle.  Then I asked the Lord
          Jesus to  pick a spokesmen from the group,  if there was a group,
          to speak because I did not want to speak to all the demons.  Then
          I addressed that  demon.  He manifested by  speaking through this
          person's voice to  me.  I  never spend time visiting  with demons
          about anything.   They either  answer or I turn  them immediately
          over to the Lord.

               In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I commanded this demon
          to tell me  what right he had  to be in  this person's life.   He
          said, "Because of the game."

               I said, "what game.

               He said, "You know, the game; the game."

               "I said, "I will ask you only one more  time.  If you refuse
          to answer, I will  turn you over to the True  Lord Jesus Christ."
          I then repeated my question.

               He  said, "She is blind.   We have heard other people coming
          up to her and  asking her to guess  their name.  We  thought that
          would be fun, too.  So we play  the game with her now.  She can't
          guess our  names because she  thinks our voices are  real people.
          We just laugh at her and frighten her."

               I immediately had my answer.  I began to command this demon,
          and all those under his authority, to stop talking.  As I did so,
          they began talking louder and  louder; the voice going higher and
          higher in pitch.   It was saying,  "Guess my name, guess  my name
          guess my name, what's my name, what's my name?  Come on, play the
          game, play  the game,  play the game."   The  second I  spoke the
          final  word, ordering  them  to  cease talking  and  to stand  at
          attention, they  stopped.  I asked the client, "Did you hear what
          they said."  She was crying and said  she heard them and now knew
          what it was  all about from her childhood.  I  said, "Do you want
          them to remain?"   Of course, she  said, no.   I led this  person
          through a simple prayer to remove them.  She reported  they left.
          Then we finished our  prayer session by finding out  how this got
          started, letting the Holy Spirit remove the lies by exposing them
          as lies, and then inviting Jesus to speak to this person to bring
          His healing.

               Again, you  may choose to  believe or not believe;  it makes
          literally no difference to  me what you believe.  It  does make a
          difference to  the demons  what you believe,  however, even  as a

               I leave  you with this  thought.  If  you can hear  the Lord
          speaking in your thoughts, what makes you think a lying deceiving
          spirit cannot  also speak  into your thoughts?   The  Bible says,
          "Neither give  place to the  devil," (Ephesians 4:27).   I wonder
          what happens if you, as a born again Christian, do give  place to
          the  devil?  Paul  was writing to  Christians when he  said that,
          too.    I  wonder  what Paul  really  meant,  but  then, I'm  not
          obligated to explain it.  Am I?

          Safe Place Fellowship
          Phil Scovell
          Denver, Colorado - Mountain Time Zone
          Web:  WWW.SafePlaceFellowship.COM
          Web:  WWW.RedWhiteAndBlue.ORG

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